Panel: Murielle Borst (Editor in Chief of EastCoastNative.com), Steve Elm (Artistic Director of Amerinda Theater), John Haworth (Director of The Smithsonian's National Museum of the American Indian's Heye Center), Muriel Miguel (Artistic Director of Spiderwoman Theater), and Danielle Soames (Co-Artistic Director of Mixed Phoenix Theatre Group)
March 3, 2009
This conversation was part of the Public Lab Speaker Series following a performance of Tales of an Urban Indian.
LIZ FRANKEL: All right, so we will begin. Thank you so much for joining us. As I said before, my name is Liz Frankel, I am the Literary Associate here at The Public and our topic is Native Theater In New York City Today. And I am so honored to be here with all of our wonderful panelists. Since their bios are in the program and we’re going to talk a lot about what they do. I’ll just introduce them. So we have Muriel Miguel, Murielle Borst, John Haworth, Steve Elm and Danielle Soames. The production you just saw tonight of “Tales of an Urban Indian” is part of the Native Theater Initiative, which is a relatively new initiative here at The Public. This is our first full production. Before this we had a festival this past December which featured readings, field discussions and post-show discussions, and we had a similar festival to that the year before…but Native theater has been going on well before us. It’s a really rich community in New York we wanted to celebrate and talk about tonight. The Public Theater is really just building on what’s already been happening and we’re so honored to be joining the Native Theater community, many members of which are represented here. So what I’d love to do is to have each of you introduce yourselves and talk about what projects and shows you are working on at present. Let’s start with you.
MURIEL MIGUEL: It’s very nice to see Native people in the audience. Hello and good evening. I’m Muriel Miguel and I am director of Spiderwoman Theater which is a Native feminist theater group. It is thirty-one years old. It’s the longest ongoing feminist theater group in the world, I think. It started in New York City. We started out as a multi-racial group of women, and then we became an all Native theater group. Now, my aim as director is to pass this on. I’m getting older. And what I see in the future is the next generation of Native women and what they will do with this organization. So I’ll still continue the show, I’ll be doing it at LaMaMa; it’s called “Red Mother” and it’s loosely based on Brecht’s “Mother Courage.” It’s about one woman, literally, empowered by war and what we do as women and what we’re like now. (Beat.) Go ahead. Talk.
MURIEL BORST: I’m the director of the piece. My name is Muriel Borst. I’m a writer/director/actress/ producer. Right now, I am working with United Nations Indigenous Forum where I’m working on the death of Indigenous people. I’m trying to get the arts involved with that. I’m a special assistant to the representative…I believe that storytelling is part of what we do as Native people. I believe that storytelling is what teaches us and what heals us. I believe the thread has been cut internationally. We have to fight for that. We have to fight for our rights. Part of the Indigenous forum and part of the declaration means that we have the sovereign right to fight as Native and Indigenous people for our art socially and in literature. It’s human rights issue, really. And that’s what I’m working on. I’m also the editor-in-chief of East Coast Native. It’s an electronic magazine that focuses on Native people who live on the East Coast, who are connected to the East Coast, who have something to say. Right now, we’re not taking any form but we are…
Anyway, the next thing I’m working on, and that’s what I do, I’m also working with my husband. He hires me as his artistic director. We’ve collaborated on many different things. I grew up here in New York City. My husband grew up in New York City. My daughters grew up in New York City. I know my tribe. I know my culture, I know my language. And I think those are very important. I think the other most important thing is that we as Native people who live here in these cities, that our own identification is what we’re always fighting for. We’re always fighting for those issues. We’re always fighting to be heard. We have a special voice. We have a voice that needs to be heard. Everyone has a different voice. I thought this was a wonderful piece and that this piece really talked about different themes that go on in different Native cultures. We all have different voices and we all have different places to get to that one goal. I’m also the director of my mother’s piece, “Red Mother,” and that’s what we’re doing right now. The next thing we’re doing is a benefit for Flying Eagle Woman Fund produced by Spiderwoman Theater at the Public Theater. That’s it.
JOHN HAWORTH: My name is John Haworth and I’m the director of The George Gustave Heye Center which is part of National Museum of the American Indian. I’m honored to be here at the Public Theater. I’ll tell you a little bit about the convergence of themes and your question…see on the desk, our catalogue for an exhibit called “New Tribe, New York.” You’ll see that like this piece, it really tells the truth and deals with some very complicated issues. One of the things in “New Tribe, New York,” which celebrated and honored Spiderwoman, was Mohawk artist Alan Michelson who has been selected for a major public art piece on the Canadian-U.S. border at the border station this year. You’ll find that is incredibly significant both as an achievement and cultural expression. I agree with something said earlier which is inspiring in that statement… It is quite important while we’re talking about urban Indianness that we are living in a city with an American Indian population. I believe that population by the U.S. census account does not necessarily include what I’ll call transnational people from Central or South America. I think that the museums and institutions are a great storage of reflection. The real heart of what we do is…expression. We’ve dedicated an art gallery to Native art. In terms of theater work in particular, we have a lot of performing arts programs and…an incredible music series mostly in the summer but also in other seasons. We have a Native American film and video festival which is coming out later this month on March 26th. I think that this year, I was thinking about this earlier, this year is quite significant for lots of reasons. This is the 400th anniversary of the Henry Hudson Fulton Champlain Quadricentennial and I think this is a moment that all of us can think about, that point of contact and what it means from a Native perspective… I think this is a remarkable year because in part of what the Public Theater is doing is putting a production expression in terms of creative artists who are themselves…I think it’s a really important point. I think that this is the year that we saw Frozen River and with a very complicated story…the mainstream recognition is no small matter. The fact that Sherman Alexie won the National Book Award, the fact that even though we saw in the first moments of the piece…we saw stereotypical images and there were references that are…commercial images and all that, I’m reminded that this is also a season for […] mainstream opera at the Metropolitan Opera. There was a beautifully drawn Native character, it’s not played it’s not sung by a Native singer. However, it’s not lost that an opera basically about a weapon of mass destruction on the stage of the Metropolitan Opera with a truthful Native character is something very important. And a Native character on Broadway in the play “August: Osage County,” is the most powerful role in the play.
STEVE ELM: My name is Steve Elm and I’m the Artistic Director of Amerinda Theater. Before I continue, again, I’d like to say I’m very honored to be on this panel, specifically because Muriel Miguel who is not only an elder in the Indian sense but also an elder in the creative sense. So I’m very honored to be here. And also, just a little anecdote about Muriel…I trained overseas in the UK I don’t know if there are any Shakespearean actors here who… Muriel Miguel was known over in the U.K. in the eighties with Spiderwoman Theater. And I’d never even knew there was Indian theater at that time, that there were real Indian playwrights…I went to interview another theater person, a man named…of a company, Blue Lips. He went, “What are you?” and I said, “Well I’m Indian. American Indian.” “You know Muriel Miguel?” and that was how I first heard of Muriel Miguel. I’m also the editor of Talking Stick Native Arts Quarterly. Talking Stick is published by Amerinda which is part of an umbrella company. I’ve been in New York since 1991. I came here to work as an actor and educator. And I found out the…piece very challenging …specifically much of the material about being an actor and the culture of references that go along with it. Consequently I pulled out of legit theater because I wasn’t prepared emotionally to deal with those things. I was very lucky to find a home in Native theater in different ways. Talking Stick, that’s part of Amerinda, our mission is to promote Native artists, explore Native artists, get it out in the open from a Native perspective. We had various meetings throughout the community in the last couple years and we always knew there were groups like Spiderwoman and Yaddo but there wasn’t really any thing happening. It was always us trying to get something going. …We’ve only been doing work for about a year and a half, very early at this stage. Our mission is to present emerging and new Native playwrights along with other Native artists. A long term goal, I’m going to do this all on the stage, is get Native theater out of archives, specifically and into legit theaters and into commercial theaters. That’s my long term goal. It might take a generation but that’s what we’re working towards.
DANIELLE SOAMES: Hello. My name is Danielle Soames. I’m thrilled to be here as part of this panel. I have to say that all of these people on the panel I’ve worked with and I respect very much. My theater company that I co-founded and am artistic co-director of is Mixed Phoenix Theater Group. My business partner, who is in the audience, is Ryan Victor Pierce. We have worked together for about eight years as actors, directors and now producers and company owners. We’re in the process of getting incorporated. We started our procedure about a little over a year ago now. We worked together on a project called “Carlisle, A Different Three Sisters” written by Myrton Running Wolf. It was an adaptation of “Three Sisters.” Took place at Carlisle Indian school. Upon that journey, we got in a discussion about “Hey, I’d like to start a theater company.” “Me too.” “What would you like the mission to be?” Well, our mission is that we have American Indian stories but our focus is to tell the American story through multi-ethnic, multicultural backgrounds breaking mainstream stereotypes. Part of that reason is because we’ve both fallen out of the loop of what is considered to be typecast as a Native actor. We both struggle with that. We thought if we can get the word out into the public and kind of help change what people see as a Native actor, maybe somehow it will start the steps to understanding that maybe Native people have evolved into these urban people who do all sorts of different activities and jobs and don’t just have the regular braids and turquoise. Even though, as I was saying that, I’m wearing a turquoise scarf but that was not planned. What’s coming up: May 13th and 14th, we’re working on a workshop production of an original piece that we’re developing based on a multi-ethnic cast. We’re developing our own stories through movement, identity and music. It’s going to be quite exciting. I feel that all of these people here have helped develop who I am as an artist living here in New York City for about twelve years. It’s very inspiring.…I’m hopeful. We’re going to actually perform here in the Rehearsal Hall. It’s invite only. You’re going to have to contact us specifically. Then it’s at the Community House on May 15th. That’s open to the public. If you want more information, I can tell you after.
LIZ FRANKEL: So, before we go to questions from the audience, I just have one question that I’d love to throw out there to all of our panelists. Given that you are all living in New York and primarily working in New York, what do you feel that your relationship is to Native artists who aren’t in New York, who are living in other parts of the country or living on reservations, as well to youth, both here in New York as well as elsewhere.
MURIEL MIGUEL: Our relationships?
LIZ FRANKEL: Yeah, or connections. Is there a connection? I know you do a lot of youth outreach as well as tutoring.
MURIEL MIGUEL: Well, you know, Indian Country is first. And we find that out over and over again in these numerous performances. And yes, we’re in New York City. And yes, we’ll be working, yes, all of us, we’ll be working very hard in New York City. I think why I ended up in England and Germany and all of those places, was because there was no home gig at that time. And we went to Europe with one of our shows. And when we came back, one of the things that happened was there was a circle of elders and they’re the ones really that said “Well you know you should be doing a story about this and you should be doing a story…” And how we’re not here. And that’s why we really made that effort to be here and to work in New York City at the Community House, at La Mama, at the Theater for the New City, we worked all those places and I think now what I’m looking at is that we need the Indian community, the Native community, to support us, to support all this work. You know, that people should start calling us up and saying “you’re paying a due.” I think that’s really necessary now. And if it’s from across the country, great! You know, if it’s from Canada, great! If it’s from Central America, great! I want to see that. Because, to us, really, there are no, you know, all of these borders. Forget about that. They’re just used as excuses to keep us apart. And there’s also, the excuses, you know, that “Oh, that they’re from the Northwest; they’re from the Southwest; they’re from, you know, upstate.” We really have to start thinking about really supporting each other. And that’s my relationship. My relationship is that, you know, we’re all one. We’re all one, and if we want to tell our stories and keep our culture going, we have to start thinking. Not that we have to give up our nations, but that we have that sovereignty across the boarders.
MURIELLE BORST: I guess, my relationship, with the youth is with a teenage girl. And I, now I mix, here, I am having the same type of, now, it’s very interesting. …But, anyway, you know, when you’re the lone Native kid in a theater program… And that was very interesting, when he brought it into his piece, because I understood it. I never particularly went through that because I came from – I live in New York. But now that my daughter is going to a high school where she’s the only Indian kid, and the only thing you can see that is a reflection of you is Raisin in the Sun for that Native kid. Not that it’s not a good play, not that you can’t relate to that. But, what about Native plays that are being printed, that are being published? And we need to start making the effort as teachers to make that effort - college, high school, junior high- if you have that one Native kid, make that effort to buy those plays. You know, other than – some children– aren’t interested in Shakespeare. And you can lose a child through the cracks during that time. And I think that you have my own daughter read Shakespeare. I don’t say it, but I realize that, you know, she’s not getting “Romeo and Juliet,” because she thinks it’s a stupid story, and they are two stupid teenagers, and she would never do that. A teacher needs to turn around and say, “Well, I’m not going to use this thing. I need to find another way to educate.” And that’s where, I believe, I do believe this, that there are tons of different ways to teach. There are tons of different ways to tell a story. And if you can get to that child, somehow, and then there has to be a connection between the youth and the elders. Like right now, I’m in between. I remember when I was a youth. I’m not, you know – so, now I’m a bridge, because I have elders in my family. I have real elders, besides her … I have real elders in my family. You know, and how do we keep them occupied? How do we keep them in touch with us? In, especially, in New York City. I ask- you know- asking the elders in my family, “well, what do you need? Do you need - you know, your world is separated here. How do we help each other? How do we get together with socialism? And bringing the powwow back to what it was originally supposed to be.” How does the youth understand the elders? I mean, really understand. Not “old people.” I mean, they have a point. And I do believe that. I mean, there’s a difference between old people and there’s a difference between elders. And we know a lot of old people, but we need to bring back our elders. And I think that’s really, one of the works that, with my community, that I really want to talk about. And with our youth. Because without our elders, we don’t have community. Without our youth we don’t have a community. Both will disappoint each other. And that’s something, in New York City, that we have room to do. And, again, she’s right. We have to start helping each other, we have to start realizing, I believe, that what happens a lot of times is that we think that everything has to be a hundred-thousand dollar budget. But if you realize that storytelling is in a room and you can get five-hundred people, if you look at the academy awards, the way they brought that all down, that’s a Native concept, you know? How they honored each one of those actors, that’s an Indigenous concept. That’s nothing new. So, now, we’re being called upon to do it. Obama has an idea. We have to have a different way of thinking and a different way of thinking has come through words and how do we…if you’re used to doing something for five people in your backyard for five bucks, believe me, you can do a hell of a lot with fifty-thousand dollars. So, I think we really need to start thinking about that. And really that’s kind of my whole thinking.
MURIEL MIGUEL: I remember, there were two very traditional spoken people…and they talked to…and it was incredible to have these two people who believe deeply about the significance and cultural importance of repatriation. We also said some things that were so meaningful to me, and so connect to what I feel that the work’s meaning is. What it’s about is important. And that was basically, the lesson that they have gone back decades upon decades. And the belief was that their language was not something that someone learned, that they have something of a personal belief. And so, that experience made connection. I think that this evening is very special to consider this idea in mind… We can be a part of this verbal community… But I also believe that this connection with the whole range. I love what you said in your piece about the adjective of describing your reservation in you, you’re assimilated. And I think that this is complicated and very enormous in its discourse, this community, this ritual, history making. A friend of mine often gives me a hard time saying, “You know, this is – you’re working in an institution that – you know – this is America’s holocaust and you need to tell your visitors more directly about that.” I understand that we’re in need. And I understand that we can put out there what’s important, tell stories of sovereignty, the story of land, the story of western expansion, all of the complexity of the history of this country. But I also think it’s something to talk about the aspirations and achievements and not the awfuls done, but what we did. And I think that that’s the danger of the west. And I do think that the contact with communities, and I think that in a very important way, in New York, that we have a space that is for Native socials about three or four times a year, and I feel that it’s one of the most important …things that New York is doing and I’m very proud of that.
DANIELLE SOAMES: I was just going to say that one of the ways that I stay connected to my community up in Mohawk and my roots are from Kahnawake, which is right outside Quebec – actually it’s inside of Quebec, just outside of Montreal. But I didn’t grow up on the rez; my mom grew up on the rez. So, working at the museum, I work at the [National] museum [of the American Indian] Haudenosaunee discovery room, which is a room based on traditions for the Iroquois people, so all the Six Nations. I met a wonderful documentary film maker, Tracey Deer, and through that connection I was able to discuss what’s happening in New York City and what’s happening on the rez and turns out that her family bought the newspaper on the rez, which is called Eastern Door. So, I have a regular column, where I write “Mohawk Girl in New York City.” Kind of like a “Sex and the City” but from my point of view about being mixed. So, not so, you know, risqué, just about the arts and what’s happening here from my perspective. And that’s how I reach the community. And I also have family who live right on the rez, and they tell me about issues that are happening. And once I hear about those issues, I bring them into rehearsal and we talk about blood quantum and we talk about the land rights. We talk about all these issues that are happening currently and in the past and continuing. Trying to explore new ways of developing- I guess communicating – to the public. So, that it’s not so isolated. And I realize, you know, maybe some of the dialogue we found funny as Natives and non-Natives didn’t understand - but one thing that I have to say which was brilliant was the way, Darrell, that you acted like the Native girl. You went “Mmmm, yeah, you- I know- ” The way you did it was awesome and it really brought back some memories. So, anyway, so trying to bridge that gap between the rez and the urban community in a creative movement performance stuff.
STEVE ELM: Years ago – I’m going to make this very quick – years ago, I was in a play here and my character was called “The Indian.” And afterwards, I didn’t want to …do this thing, so I thought, I got some money and I funded American Indian Community House Youth Theater Project. And I really thought-- And a nominal objective, when I go to rehearsals, I’d say, “Let’s talk about identity. How do you feel about being Indian? You’re half black, half white – deh-deh-deh” and they were all like this [gestures] to me. “They say we’re Indians. That’s who we are.” And my issue, because I wasn’t in such a big question mark about it, simply through working in theater and being hired as “The Indian” I wanted to see where they were at with this. And I found a lot of what urban kids that had grown up in the community, the Shinnecock kids, the Mohawk kids, whatever kids that are grown up in this community and have been nurtured by, they had no problem. They were hip-hop, they were rap, they were reggae, they were hard-rock, they were Indians. And I found that when you go around the country you find out there are a lot people, the young people, secure in how they are growing up. And I feel it is very important that that is continued, and I worry that it’s not being continued as much as we could hope it to be. Also, quickly, in terms of relationships with other artists throughout the country, I’m poor. I am not really able to travel the country and meet lots of other artists, other Indian artists. And most Indian artists are poor, and their shows don’t normally come here. So it’s very rare when do get to all come to together. And I also want to thank the Public Theater for being very instrumental in having so many Indians in the theater recently, it’s been great.
LIZ FRANKEL: I think we’ve been running a bit long. I think we’ll have time for just one question from the audience. [laughter] Maybe two or three. Anyone have anything they’re dying to ask?
MURIEL MIGUEL: It’s so typical. A bunch of Indians onstage.
MURIELLE BORST: We have to get everything out.
MURIEL MIGUEL: We can continue talking in the lobby for hours and hours.
Audience #1: You were saying, what does it mean to be authentically Native?
MURIEL MIGUEL: What does that mean?
Audience #1: I mean, to be authentic as opposed to inauthentic. What does that mean? And what is your relationship to – what’s the relationship to past tradition 400 years back in relationship to the present and reality of who you are in the -
MURIEL MIGUEL: There’s no difference. I mean, did we use authentic?
MURIEL BORST: Authentic? I mean you’re saying how are we different from five hundred years ago to today?
Audience #1: I’m saying, what is the concept of being authentic?
MURIEL MIGUEL: What do you mean authentic?
HERBIE BARNES (Tales Of An Urban Indian’s director): Sorry, I think what he’s asking is, when you say, I played the role of “Indian” what the difference between playing that role and you’re trying to do. How are you breaking that rule of–
STEVE ELM: I’ll answer that really quickly, I think Darrell answers is in his show as well. Ah, you’re often asked – there’s a certain thing around Indians, especially when we’re put in a public situation or a theatrical situation, it’s whole buffalo speech thing. You’ve got to slow down, you’ve got to be spiritual, you’ve got to be stoic as Darrell said. If there’s any trace of being urban. A lot of non-Indian people, and some Indians, will question your, what we call, “authenticity.” And I think most Indians in the house would understand that. I hope that.
MURIEL MIGUEL: Is that what you meant?
MURIELLE BORST: …I agree. You know. I mean, no one sees it as racism. They don’t see it as racism. And that’s what really gets me, is that, you know, here you have Obama as president, we have men having babies, but talk about an Indian who walks into a casting director’s office and they can still say that you don’t look like an Indian, if a little person who was a midget walked in, you would never say he doesn’t look taller. But they’re still saying that to us. And no one is seeing that as racism. And you know. I guess that’s the whole thing. You know… I guess, you know, and you see that. A lot. That’s my thing.
MURIEL MIGUEL: I guess, authentic things, makes me crazy. That’s why I said, “Did we say authentic?” You know. It’s one of those words. You know. “Are you authentic?” So, ahhh- I forgot what I was going to say. [laughter] Next question.
LIZ FRANKEL: Alright, we’ll do one more question, and then we should give the theater back. Alright, we’ll go with you [to audience member].
Audience #2: Okay, I’m from New Mexico, and we have a lot of Native Americans in our state. And we’re being inundated with the gambling world around us. We have casinos all over the place. And I thought how wonderful it would be for you to connect with those people and tell your story. And tell the story that isn’t being told even to our own people, to understand why they feel the way they do, because of the discrimination and things that we feel. I also wanted you to know that I think we’re here, the eight people sitting here, bringing Indigenous people together from rural America to work together. And so, it’s really wonderful to see that this is happening and people are telling their story and how they feel in identifying themselves. I thought it was portrayed very well by the young man here and sometimes I got teared up over it, because it is so very true. You know with Indigenous people and how we feel and how we’re being discriminated against. I think it’s a wonderful way to tell their story. And I was very mixed up. A lot of other cultures that have told their stories and it’s very moving and it’s a very really real way to see. Because you’re telling it from your heart and how you feel, so, I applaud you for your work and what you’re doing and I encourage you to spread your wings and go to other places because we, as Native Americans as well, need to have someone tell us this story for us to really understand what’s in our hearts. Thank you.
LIZ FRANKEL: And thank you for that. I think we could probably go on talking for hours, but I know you can’t keep a theater open for hours. So I think we should end here. And we invite everyone to go to the lobby, and buy some books on this topic and keep talking as long as you’d like. Thank you, everyone.
